Boys And Men Of Color Healing From 
Systemic And Interpersonal Trauma 

JACKI CHERNICOFF: Hello, everyone. Thank you for joining our 
virtual session today, Boys And Men Of Color Healing From 
Systemic and Interpersonal Trauma. My name is Jacki Chernicoff 
with the Center on Victimization and Safety and the National 
Resource Center For Reaching Victims. 

OK, with that, I want to turn things over to Richard Smith from 
Common Justice, who will to introduce himself and the panelists 
for today's discussion. 

RICHARD SMITH: There we go. Hello, everyone. Thank you so 
much for taking the time to join in this really important and 
meaningful conversation. My name is Richard Smith, and I'm the 
national director for United for Healing Equity, which is the policy 
in emerging organizing arm of an organization called Common 
Justice that is based out of Brooklyn, New York. 

Our work is focused on advancing solutions to violence without 
relying on the criminal punishment system and promoting racial 
equity in healing for people of color who've been impacted by 
various forms of violence, which includes state sanctioned 
violence, interpersonal violence, race based violence, and the 
likes. 


I am also the lead on the National Resource Center for Reaching 
Victims Expert Working Group that has focused over the last two 
years on assessing the needs, and developing solutions, and 
ways, and resources and ways to support organization to want to 
expand their services to heal young men of color who've 
impacted by violence and trauma. 

This conversation is something that came to mind for me when 
thinking about everything that's happening in our society right 
now and in the world right now. In one moment, we were faced 
with COVID-19 in which it soon became clear, in which many of 
us already had known and assumed that COVID-19 was 
impacting Black and Brown people at a disproportionate rate for a 
variety of reasons. 

And as we were dealing with this sad reality and trying to put 
pressure on policy makers and folks to address those issues so 
that Black folks, Brown folks could have access to the resources 
that they need to deal with this pandemic, we experienced a 
series of continuing murdering of Black men, and Black folks, 
Black women, Black trans folks, specifically at the hands of police 
officers. This led to understandable and justifiable rage, uprisings 
that was rooted in tremendous pain that Black folks, Brown folks 
have held inside for hundreds of years. 

And what I continue to hear was that there was multiple 
perspectives on how folks felt we should be addressing these 


issues coming off the backs of dealing while dealing with the 
pandemic, and then the uprisings, and the police murders of 
Black men and women and trans folks. And there were conflicting 
perspectives on how we should be addressing this. 

Some folks said we should not be responding with violence and 
anger. And we should be marching peacefully. And then other 
folks were saying we should be focusing on the violence that's 
happening in Black communities at the hands of Black folks 
against other Black folks. 

And I felt that this conversation needed to be one to not only just 
talk about the ways in which we, as Black folks, have experienced 
trauma historically and intergenerationally, in ways in which we 
heal historically and intergenerationally, but for us to talk about 
this from an intergenerational perspective, hearing from the lives 
of folks who come from a clinical, more therapeutic background, 
like my guest on the panel today, and also hearing from folks 
who are on the ground, organizers, young folks who are 
committed and have shown their commitment to the healing and 
the liberation of Black and Brown people in this country. 

And so this conversation could not happen, talking about trauma 
and healing, without considering the tremendous amount of 
collective pain that Black and Brown people are experiencing. And 
so please know that this will be a part of this conversation. And 
with that said, I would love to introduce my panelists that are-- 


not only just my panelists, but they are friends. They are 
colleagues. They are elders. They are people that I admire at 
their work. 

They are folks that I know have committed their lives to this, 
work of healing in Black and Brown communities, and also 
bringing about racial equity and liberation for oppressed people in 
this country, and throughout the world. 

And with that said, I wanted to introduce each one of the panels. 
I have some actually introduce you to themselves and tell you a 
little bit about their work as it relates to healing. And I'd like to 
start with-- I wanted to start with Alex. So thank you for joining 
this conversation. Alex you got it. 

ALEX DAVE: Appreciate it, appreciate it, Richard. Thank you for 
having me here. I thank the panelists. I thank everybody who 
organized this beautiful webinar today. And I'm just thanking 
everybody who attended. Alex Dave and Alex Love, those are 
pronouns I go by. And I work as a Human and Healing Justice 
Organizer at HOLLA, How Our Lives Link Altogether. 

And as a member of the youth arm, HOLLA, the Youth Organizing 
Collective, where we are engaged in our Healing Justice 
Movement, which is connected to other, like, ancestral Black and 
Brown movements that we stand on. And with that, we do a lot of 
healing work centered around, like, journeying with each other 


and others to share stories, to do a lot of individual and collective 
transformation, which means-- like when I say journey with each 
other, it means definitely being able to be vulnerable with a 
sustainable long periods of time with each other. 

So just thinking about like-- when HOLLA created their 18-month 
program, 18-month process, it was really for our young folks and 
me to journey with each other, to learn about each other, share 
stories, get angry, circle back, follow up, but also know that we 
really cared about each other, and not only to become youth 
leaders and organizers in our communities, but to really be 
friends with each other as well through this struggle. 

RICHARD SMITH: Thank you, Alex. 

ALEX DAVE: Thank you. 

RICHARD SMITH: Lisa? 

LISA GOOD: Hi, my name is Lisa Good, and I am the Founder of 
Urban Grief. And the focus and the work of Urban Grief is to 
address the trauma, the grief, and the crisis that's created by 
acts of violence, particularly shootings and homicides. And so to 
that end, I have worked very hard to increase awareness within 
our communities to help people name and gives language to 
some of the experiences that they've had related-- not just to 


trauma associated with violence, but to their historical trauma 
and their life trauma. 

And so we educate. We train. We spend time. And we just show 
up. A big part of the work is just showing up and being present, 
to be with people in their healing journey, whatever that may 
look like. 

RICHARD SMITH: Thank you, Lisa. Bruce. 

BRUCE PURNELL: Right. Love more and live in peace family. I am 
so excited, man, right now. I just checked out Bella Bahhs' stuff, 
man and Alex's stuff. And I'm so excited, man, about my young 
brothers and sisters that's carrying this torch and this legacy of 
liberation, man, on to the next generation. Man, I'm so happy 
about that, but yeah, I'm Dr. Bruce. 

And we're doing this work like-- we don't use the geographical 
boundaries because it's like this is a worldwide movement for 
love, like a love vibration, but banging with my Live in Peace 
family, my Love More family, my seniors offering additional love, 
my soul family, my-- Buxtons Next Generation family in Southern 
Ontario always banging for liberation, my Idanre Hills family, like 
four hours west of Lagos and in Ondo State, Nigeria family. 

Man, we are-- I mean, I met so many phenomenal people, so 
many places that just want the best for everybody, man. It's like 


we want to live together and in such a way, man, that we can 
enjoy our gifts. And we can move past like discussion of like how 
we are identifying so much of the pain and start to move toward 
really identifying, developing, and activating our gift to buying 
gifts on this planet. 

And of course, you Richard, man, thanks for everything, brother 
man. Everybody-- each time you pull somebody together, man, 
it's like therapy for me, man. Every time you call me, man, it's a 
therapeutic situation for me. So I appreciate you, brother. 
Appreciate Vera, man. Again, that's pretty phenomenal people 
doing great stuff, man. And I just look for this to do this 
discussion. 

RICHARD SMITH: We're going to pause really quickly as 
interpreters switch. Bella, last but not least. 

BELLA BAHHS: Yeah, all right. I am Bella Bahhs. BAHHS is B-A-H-
H-S. That's Black Ancestors Here Healing Society, Not bars, not 
prisons. So in terms of BAHHS, I am a vessel. I am source 
energy. I am resistant energy to the status quo. But I am the 
energy of allowance of allowing goodness, of allowing love, of 
allowing liberty, of allowing freedom. 

So I understand myself as a vessel for freedom and for 
revolution. And as opposed to the status quo, which in our society 
is the incarceration of Black people at disproportionate rates in 


this country. And the status quo as anti-Blackness, so BAHHS, 
not bars, and not prisons, not jails, not incarceration. 

So I talk about abolition as accountability. So the calls for 
accountability that I issue is one for abolition, for the abolition of 
police and of prisons, and that being a call to healing, a call to 
accountability for our communities, and for the American 
government. 

So in my conversations today on this panel, I'll talk a lot about 
healing as dismantling current systems and creating new ones. 
And I appreciate you, Rich. And I appreciate everybody who I'm 
going to be in conversation with today because I already know 
that we are in for quite a treat here today. 

RICHARD SMITH: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Thank you, Bella. You 
definitely moved my spirit just now. I needed that. Yes, protest, 
there is that energy into this conversation. You know, the way 
that we frame this conversation is to look at things in pain and 
trauma, from a historical lens, look at where we're at now, and 
also to talk about the dreams that we have, right? The work that 
we're doing now. The dreams that we have for liberation, for 
Healing Equity, for Healing Justice. 

And I say, I've come to this conversation-- yes, I have credentials 
for my first experience with trauma as a child and did it continued 
throughout my teenage years up until the age of 21 where act of 


experience in childhood, sexual abuse, after experiencing gun-- 
experiencing gun violence, and various forms of physical abuse at 
the hands of people who love me, who are supposed to love me, 
and had some challenges themselves, as well as you know 
correction officers and police officers. 

I found myself incarcerated for a period of 10 years of my life. 
And I bring this up because one of the things that I've learned in 
this process is that you have to be able to account for what has 
happened in our past as we think about where we are today and 
then as we envision where we see ourselves tomorrow. So the 
structure of this conversation, the way that we will be responding 
to healing and trauma for Black people, Brown people is going to 
be rooted in that because I know wholeheartedly that hurt 
people, can hurt people. But people who are going to be a healing 
journey can heal others. 

And so that's how I come to this conversation as well. And we all 
know that everyone on this conversation has been harmed and 
that we are simultaneously healing ourselves by trying to be, as 
Bella said, vessels for healing and liberation of others. And so 
with that said, I want to open up the floor in the way that this 
conversation is going to go is I'm going to pose a question and 
had everyone has an opportunity to respond. 

And so this first question is about this, the historical piece, right? 
How did we get here? And when I say get here, is this a mind 


state? Is this a physical state? And why do we even have to have 
a conversation that's uniquely focused on Black boys, Brown 
boys, Black communities, Brown communities, right? What has 
happened that this has become a particular effort to focus more 
on identifying that trauma and figuring out ways to help that 
community heal? 

We have over 1,000 people who registered for this conversation, 
meaning that people who are really looking for solutions. And I 
really applaud you and I'm grateful for you taking that step to 
come here to learn about the ways in which we take into account 
the historical experience that we have in our journey to heal 
ourselves and others. But with the group of panelists, I want us 
to say, look at life and talk about how we got here. 

How do we heal? And then how do we heal and how have we 
healed in a society that has not seen us as humans? How do we 
heal in that way? And so Bella, definitely. 

BELLA BAHHS: OK. So, I think-- thank you for posing this 
question. And for the ASL interpreters, this is Bella Bahhs 
speaking. But what I want to ground us in is the-- we just 
celebrated Juneteenth across America like in the largest 
celebration of freedom for enslaved Africans in this country. 

And we are headed into the 4th of July weekend, celebrating 
American Independence. And I think if we talk about the 


Emancipation Proclamation, and we talk about the Declaration of 
Independence and situate them happening in times of war, then 
it might be easier for us to have this conversation because these 
ideals of freedom came out of a real war. And like there's real 
consequences for war, for who goes to war, and who returns from 
war, who doesn't return from war, but that had real 
consequences in society. 

And if we understand that what we are experiencing right now, 
America has never existed without war, all right? So we have 
always been at war. And Black people have always been in a 
position of being at war in this country even when there is no 
acknowledged war happening on our land. 

But we are in a perpetual state of war. So what that does to Black 
Manhood specifically because I think it's the reason that this is 
even framed I believe about Black Manhood and healing Black 
boys because there's so much attention on what happens with 
young Black boys, is because we only talk about a certain type of 
violence when we talk about violence within the Black 
community. And that violence is often attributed to young Black 
boys and how they participate in gun violence and American gun 
violence. 

But we don't really talk about-- even in your experience, and 
you've talked about, Rich, your sexual trauma as a young Black 
boy, like we don't talk about that violence against Black boys. 


Like there's a very sensationalized idea of what violence happens 
in our communities and ignores the larger backdrop of there 
being a consistent, a perpetual state of war that this violence is 
happening within. So it's not happening inside of a vacuum. It's 
happening while war is happening, all right? 

So we focus on certain elements of war. And even historically, I 
think that it's always been a case. So if we talk about Black 
Manhood, there was a law in America, the United States Supreme 
Court and the Dred Scott case saying that there were no rights 
that a Black man had that a white man was bound to respect. 
And this was right before the Emancipation Proclamation or the 
first celebration of Juneteenth. 

So when we think about laws, how laws have been used to justify 
war against Black people and laws have been used to hold people 
immune and states of immunity from their violence against Black 
people, then the only violence we can talk about is the violence 
that white people want us to talk about. 

So white people want us to talk about gun violence that we see 
happening across teenage or young population of Black men. And 
that's why we then have to spend so much time adjusting it. But 
I want us to all acknowledge that, first and foremost, that that is 
racist. That is racist to even put us in a position I have to talk 
about our selves and in that framework, right? 


You wouldn't dare go to Germany. And tell them, I cannot go to 
Germany as a Black person, or talk to a Jewish person, and tell 
them, well, what about Jewish on Jewish crime? And to say that 
what is happening in your community is your fault. So there has 
been the whole war, the whole Second World War. There have 
been allies. When we talk about allyship, there are allies who are 
committed to ending the practice of anti-Semitism, so talking 
about what happens in the Jewish community even amongst 
Jewish people themselves. You cannot talk about that without 
talking about the legacy of anti-Semitism. 

So the legacy of the Holocaust, you cannot talk about it, right? 
That makes you anti-Semitic. That makes you anti the Jewish 
population, all right? So these allied forces have made real laws 
to say that when we acknowledge what happened to you as a 
people. And we know that it calls generational harm to you. And 
we will not hold you accountable to that. We are going to hold 
ourselves accountable for that, all right? We have not seen such 
actions taken to eradicate anti-Blackness. 

And I think that that's why we have the current climate that we 
have today to keep putting the question on Black people to say, 
well, what about Black on Black crime? What about what you're 
doing? But it's really we are at war, you know? And so anti-
Blackness, the institution of slavery across the diaspora has had 
real lasting effects on Black people. Not just how we engage with 


white people, but how we engage with ourselves, how we 
understand ourselves in a political climate and a personal climate, 
in an intimate setting, and on a macro, and the micro level. 

So yeah, I think if other people on a panel, I'm sure you want to 
chime in. But just think about how we talk about what-- just even 
us being called to talk about Black on Black crime or violence is-- 
it is racist within itself. 

RICHARD SMITH: Thank you so much, Bella. Anyone else? Feel 
free to jump in. Absolutely. This is Richard Smith speaking, just 
for the sake of-- 

LISA GOOD: This is Lisa Good speaking. And to your point when 
you were talking, Bella, what I wrote down was that whole piece 
right there that you just described is just another way of 
dehumanizing our experience. It's a way of minimizing the 
experiences that Black people have had when we always have to 
be the ones to point you to history so that you can understand 
this current context, and so just that in and of itself is taxing and 
laborious, right? 

And it draws away energy and attention from very necessary 
conversations that we need to be having at multiple levels, not 
just in the community and on the ground, but also in terms of 
what policy conversations, what institutional conversations, what 
else do we need to be doing. 


And so when we limit our scope and focus only to that phrase 
that you described or the behaviors, the externalizing behaviors 
that are related to the historical trauma, to the racial trauma, to 
the trauma associated with layers and layers of all types of 
violence that Black boys are exposed to. When we have to focus 
on that, to me, that's like blaming the victim, right? And so it's 
just another way of dehumanizing the experiences of Black boys. 

And so instead of being able to give attention to healing or being 
able to give attention to a meaningful policy agenda that gets at 
some of these things to get in a place even with service providers 
where we are able to uplift the humanity of Black boys and men, 
we have to focus on this as opposed to that. So that really 
resonated with me because I wrote that down that that is another 
way that we are dehumanized. 

BRUCE PURNELL: Wow. 

ALEX DAVE: Right. Sorry. This is Alex. Nah, thank you, Bella. 
Thank you, Lisa. Y'all hit it deeply on the head. People need to 
understand how is their physical selves, their spirit, is connected 
to herstory and history. And I say definitely we need to 
acknowledge colonialism. 

We need to acknowledge that like we stand on it. You feel me, 
that, literally, all of this that we live here today comes from this 
herstory and history to understand that, like, Indigenous land has 


been stripped, the understanding of chattel slavery, the 
understanding of the creation of America. 

And I think this is like in the depths of taking away our 
relationships, taking our relationships to each other, to the land. 
You know folks don't know their connection to the land. We on 
land, but we not with the land. And that'd be something that 
we're all like that were stripped from. 

And the deep healing is rooted in understanding our history and 
herstory. I think definitely what comes with like anxiety, hurt, 
pain, and shame when you even learning about this knowledge is 
that it hurts. It strikes you. Like definitely as a young person, 
being in junior high school, high school, I was learning nothing 
about my people, except the surface shit. 

But also at the same time, I definitely knew like there were stuff 
going wrong in my life. Like this is not the way we should be 
living. And at the same time, when I started to understand and 
get their history when I was on my beginning of like community 
college, I couldn't even sit still in seats. I'm like, yo, how you just 
saying this shit like tears shouldn't be dropping down your face? 
How you just saying this like it's not hurting you at the same 
time? 

So I even think like people shy away from learning knowledge 
and learning about the herstory and history because it could be 


hurting when they read it. It'd be hurting when they feel it. But 
those are the things that we need to go through for healing as 
well. We need to sit through and acknowledge this so we could 
figure out our future, so we can figure out our connection to this 
historical trauma. 

And another thing is, like, connected to the healing, is journeying 
and with each other. We don't share enough of our stories. We 
don't share enough of the pain that is hidden, the shame that is 
hidden. And that is also within our history and herstory, and also 
within like our own experiences. 

BRUCE PURNELL: Wow. This-- Yeah, this is Dr. Bruce. One is I 
guess the energy of the Middle Passage and a lot of times we 
think of the Middle Passage, the journey in that traumatic journey 
here to America from the Africans, the energy didn't end when it 
hit the land. And we don't really have a name for the energy that 
hit the land from the Middle Passage. 

What do we call that? That keep happening. So my best 
description of it would be the energy of exploitation as being in 
the ideology and how things move. So if we look at just the need 
to exploit, the need to exploit someone else, and what that looks 
like over time. And now, you create a color classification system. 
And based on complexion, you have a right to exploit somebody 
and dehumanize somebody because it's written into the ideology 
that way. 


So now, we have we have labels and terms that we can come up 
with the call of different things. But we're not we know everybody 
deal with the idea of exploitation and when it becomes like you 
know a lot of people know this scenario of having to encounter a 
bully as a norm. So you've got to live with the bully as a norm 
and figure out how to do it. And you raise your children to have 
to deal with this reality because it is a reality, and it's ways we 
have to move. 

Even now, we would tell young brothers and sisters to just submit 
to the police whether you're right or wrong, even if you wouldn't 
do anything wrong, just submit to survive the encounter. It's the 
same thing that probably in the time of slavery that you would 
just say, just get through the beating. You tell Kunta Kinte to say 
"Toby", just say "Toby" immediately to avoid the beating. 

And so this punishment kinda ideology, we're trying to avoid 
being whipped over and over again. So now, we're asking again 
for the police to stop beating us, stop killing us. Can we do that? 
Like and still is in question whether or not it's OK to kill us, or to 
beat us, or to rape us, or to rob us, or to have us in situations 
that we have to respond to trauma as a norm. 

So we have to be clear like if-- that's not what we want. Because 
a lot of people right now saying that they don't understand. They 
say, OK, I didn't know. I didn't understand like that's the way it 
was. OK, if you didn't-- OK. Now, let's have a true authentic 


conversation about what exploitation looks like and how it plays 
out. And if we want to move forward another way, let's heal and 
move forward another way. 

But we can't have this marginalized or compromised humanity. 
And we're asking for, well, what part of citizenship can we 
expect? So it's that, man. It's that. So in healing authentically, 
that's why I'm so proud of my young people, man. I'm so proud 
of my young people for stepping out, saying that look, we're not 
going to do it like this. 

Whatever we get to sacrifice, we're not going to do it like this. 
And the protests, it's not like a protest an event, like a march. 
This is something that's going to keep going until that changes. 
So I look forward to that. But I think that we need to really deal 
with the idea of exploitation as the ideology, as the mood, as the 
sentiment that we have to deal with. 

RICHARD SMITH: Can I --I 'm gonna add on to that. Thank you 
so much, all of you. So I just wanted to point out something. One 
of my elders and good friends and colleagues Sam Simmons says 
"it's history not pathology", right? And so I'm just thinking about 
the folks who were on this. You were listening to this, watching 
this. Why do we have this? 

If you cannot--If you're unable to contextualize the behavior of 
Black folks within a historical perspective, you will never 


understand the behaviors. And if you do not understand the 
behavior, your inclination is to pathologize, right? Oftentimes, 
what we hear is like, "I don't understand why they keep...", 
right? And that is leading to a determination that there's 
something wrong with it. 

And one of the things that I appreciate it mostly about the shift to 
trauma- informed, is that emphasis on there's "nothing wrong 
with you, something happened to you". What happened to us 
collectively? And so if you are a clinician, if you are therapist, if 
you are an advocate, if you work in IPV, or DV, you will never be 
able to understand why this sister, this Black woman is reluctant 
to call law enforcement on someone who is harming her, if you 
cannot contextualize it within a historical experience of Black 
people. 

And so anyone who wants to work with Black people, if you're on 
this call because your intentions are to figure out the best ways 
that you can play a role in supporting their healing journey, you 
have to be able to understand that historical context. And I 
wanted to clarify that to help you understand why is that so 
meaningful and relevant to this particular conversation. 

BELLA BAHHS: I think we have to take a pause so that the 
interpreters can switch. 


RICHARD SMITH: They're all set. So we're going to move right on 
to this next question, right? So here we go. We have this 
historical context that we frame things in, right? Beautifully. And 
now, we're here, right? One of the things that really help me to 
understand and Bella touched on this, right? That is so 
[INAUDIBLE]. The universe is amazing how it just adjoins in ways 
it gives us what we need. 

And so it just made me think about the study of epigenetics and 
the way that trauma, right? The research, the original research. 
Were done with descendants of Holocaust survivors, to 
understand that this trauma from that experience still lives in 
their bodies and influences, the coding of the DNA more 
specifically to the memory of that experience, even though they 
have not directly experienced it itself. 

And it gave way to an understanding of how everyone-- whether 
native Indigenous or enslaved Africans. That's the same thing. 
That is also true for you. But one of the things that my colleague 
and friend, Anna Ortega-Williams, has been able to capture and 
really have put to the forefront is that the same way that there's 
intergenerational trauma, there has been also intergenerational 
healing. 

And so that brings me to where we at now, right? And I would 
love for the panelists to talk about the ways in which because 
remember this is no-- we can't separate ourselves from this 


process because like I said earlier, and that's the reason why 
healing justice was so relevant. We're healing ourselves while 
simultaneously trying to heal other people, and support the 
healing of other people, and the work that we do. So let's talk 
about where we're at now in that healing trip. 

BELLA BAHHS: So, because I want to keep us rooted in abolition, 
I want to talk about the fact that prisons, policing, is not justice. 
It is not healing for anybody. It does not address any harm. So 
say there is harm committed, right? And then the call for 
accountability is to then send the person to prison, and that really 
doesn't restore justice to anyone, all right? 

So now, you take someone out of the situation, but you do 
nothing to repair the harm there, right? So even if it's the worst 
imaginable thing-- so right now, this is real life. Right now, I live 
in Chicago. I'm talking to you all from Chicago. What's going on 
here is, all over the news we're hearing about, a three-year-old, 
and a 13-year-old, and a bunch of teenagers, a one-year-old who 
were all killed within a week span in our city. 

So these are real, real problems. And these are things that we 
have a problem with also-- you know what I'm saying-- white 
people they talk about it to say "well look at what y'all are doing". 
But to us, we feel that. These are our children. These are 
neighbors. These are our cousins. These are the children of 


people we love. So we feel that. We show up with that every 
single day. You don't have to tell us what's going on here. 

You telling us the answer send people to prison still does no-- it 
rectifies nothing in our community. It doesn't heal anyone. It 
doesn't heal the family who's just lost their child. And it certainly 
doesn't heal the family who was now losing their child to the 
criminal justice system, right? 

So I want us to think about what does healing actually mean 
because rooted in American context because the only system of 
justice that we have is the criminal justice system, and that is a 
system that is completely inhumane. Then I don't think we really 
have a good radical-- we haven't been nurtured to have a radical 
imagination around what healing and what justice could look like 
for us. 

So, I someone in the comments talking about they work with a 
domestic violence agency, and they can't really-- they're 
speaking to what you just said, Rich, about how they can't really 
understand why people don't depend on the system, or won't 
follow up with systematic procedure, because those procedures-- 
we never consented to that. So we talk about consent. We never 
consented to this government to be governed in this way. 

So all of the systems that are now being set up to say, well, this 
is something for you to participate in. First of all, it was never 


designed for our participation in the first place. And then, you had 
to create laws to say that, OK, you can use this. It had to be 
written in law, so we know that it was never meant for us in the 
first place, to begin with. And that shows. It is not just the 
theoretical thing. It has nothing poetic about it. It's just the fact 
of the matter. It's just not designed for us, right? So it does not 
serve us. 

So, where we are is, I think we are in a position where we've 
never consented to be governed in the way that we are governed. 
We never gave consent for police officers to come into our 
communities and be our saviors. And then you want us to agree 
to sign. You just want us to take it. And at this point, it's already 
a form of abuse. It's already a form of assault, because I never 
agreed to it. 

So when we talk about the emancipation of the slaves and then 
that same year was the ratification of the 13th Amendment that 
said, we abolished slavery except as punishment for a crime, we 
have to also remember, we still had no say in the government 
then. So we could not have agreed to that clause, right? We could 
not have agreed. I think what we wanted to say at that point 
was, we want to be free of this whole system. 

We want to be free of all of it. We don't want you to have any 
control of us, because you've showed for the last 200 years that 
you are not capable of governing us. You are not equipped to 


govern us. We do not trust your governance, right? So I think the 
position that we are in right now is we are in positions of being in 
a domestic violence relationship with this government. 

So we are survivors of domestic abuse. We are survivors of rape. 
We are survivors of a terribly traumatic relationship with the 
United States government. And how we are going to heal and 
how we are going to cut ties with this government and free 
ourselves from this toxic relationship is going to be as difficult as 
it is for you to get a Black woman to follow your procedures. 

RICHARD SMITH: Woo! OK. 

BRUCE PURNELL: Wow. 

RICHARD SMITH: [LAUGHS] 

BRUCE PURNELL: [LAUGHS] So yeah, Bell. Hey, what Bella said, 
right? No. But examples of how we do that. We'll give one 
example. So with my training ground stand, so we come in. We 
work with what we would call violence interruption. So we have 
violence interruption brothers and sisters who are coming out of 
incarceration that want to change the violence in the community, 
right? So just the idea of case management. 

So I was like, we can't be cases, so on a case management, so 
we say that we're going call it love management. So we redefine 
the term case manager to be love managers, so we're the love 


management team and we run this by-- like the office, they said 
they loved it, so now we are redefining our narrative and we're 
changing the situation of us being cases and having a caseload, 
to actually coming from love and knowing that that's what's 
missing. 

And that we win, if we can let our brothers and sisters know that 
they're valuable enough to be loved and they're valuable enough 
to heal, then that starts the healing journey, but until you know 
that you're valuable enough to be loved and you're valuable 
enough to heal, then we really can't move to a framework of 
healing until that's the foundation. So if our caring community are 
taught to view us as cases then that's not human, and we're just 
dealing with paperwork, right? 

It's about moving paperwork around and checking the boxes off, 
but once we become human beings it's like look it's a whole 
different scenario of me understanding authentically what you've 
gone through. And look, and how are you able to release that 
trauma and pain of the past and move to a place of knowing that 
OK, I can release it and move on to another place, and that's 
going to be a journey. 

And like Bella said, in this country it's hard like, that idea of hope. 
So healing in the past represented just a hope of healing. The 
idea of deep in my heart I do believe that we shall overcome 
some day is a hope of healing, and that's why it was so much 


when President Obama came in and it was "yes, we can", it was 
the idea that maybe now is going to be different. 

So almost in just the past few years the infusion of the energy of 
a Trump- kind of vibration meant to us like, wow, it's almost like 
punishment for having the Black president, ends up being 
punishment as if now we where we're being punished for it with 
this new regime. And a lot of people are withdrawing, is re-
traumatizing and is isolating and it's caused an anxiety and 
uncertainty and different things like that. 

So, when we change the narrative, we got to move in another 
vibration, and our brothers and sisters who have been 
traumatized have to know that we're not trying to tell you to be 
comfortable in the same scenario of misery, to be comfortable in 
slavery, or to be comfortable in poverty. And being a psychologist 
is hard, because you almost feel like sometimes they want you to 
maintain the status quo, and if it's not, then we'll give you some 
medication so you're not aware of the scenario that you're in. 

Because a lot of times a response to a horrible situation isn't 
really mental illness. It's very sane to respond to a horrible 
situation in some of the ways that we do. And if you have to raise 
your children to expect to survive this situation, then that's why 
we respond the way that we do, and to change that up and to 
move into a healing framework we have to know that I can 
expect for it to change, because why would I sacrifice 


gratification of the present for a future that that, I don't believe 
in. 

ALEX: No, thank you for that. Thank you Bella for this 
groundedness and rootedness. I'm going to talk a little bit louder 
and I know in two minutes we're going to switch. So definitely we 
still have a hard time combating patriarchy, ending patriarchy, 
spirit- murdering. Just thinking about all the ways that violence is 
just deep in us. All the ways that even as a young person, it's 
hard to explain the violence that's going on, that is being put on 
to you. 

And when I talk about patriarchy, it's also definitely the 
objectification of our women, money, capitalism, violence, and 
lying, and I say lying is also connected to withholding truth. And 
that is straight from bell hooks, a feminist author. And I say this 
because deeply within our family cultures our relationships are so 
torn and messed up, and that they need healing. Every day in 
Black and Brown neighborhoods, Black men, Black boys, spirit- 
murder themselves and then also get their femininity snatched 
away as well. 

And I say that, is that we do it to ourselves and to each other, 
but that's the fact that we need to be healing and talking about it. 
Nobody talks about like, yo ma, why didn't you tell me when I 
was younger-- you always used to say you're going to be just like 
your father, but you know, you understand? Like, yo ma, why 


you told me when I was younger, yo stop crying, don't be crying. 
Because my mom knows, yo this world is patriarchy son, and 
once you go outside them doors, I need you to survive, and I 
think you might die if you are showing your femininity. 

Those are the things that we're not having conversations about. 
Those are things that we are just so deeply rooted in just trying 
to not say it because there is shame in them. Not say it because, 
like, we don't want it acknowledge-- like the same way I said 
we've got to acknowledge it's colonialism, we've got to 
acknowledge the fact that every day we go through PTSD. And I 
say not post, I say persistent traumatic stress. You feel me? And 
I say it's persistent, because every day I go through hurt and 
trauma. 

Every day I always, like it's so hard to not spirit murder myself, 
not snatch away my own femininity, and then walk up on the 
block and let people know that I'm shining in it. And I say this, 
that's why we got to be deeply rooted and journeying with each 
other. Deeply rooted in our own individual and collective 
transformation. Patriarchy is definitely holding our Black men and 
Black brothers back from just being able to be deeper friends with 
each other. Share things that's just not like surface stuff, like I 
keep saying. And that's another way that we're going to be able 
to protect each other for the future. 


Back to when Bella was talking about abolition, abolition work is 
creating things for our future. Imagining things for our future, but 
we can't have imagination if we so stuck in not communicating 
this trauma, not communicating this hurt and this pain. 

BRUCE PURNELL: You've got to bring that back up to this pause. 

ALEX: And I feel like-- and that comes from even learning about 
movements, our history our herstory. I think we need to 
definitely sit with our families. I don't know how many people 
really sit with their families and have circles. Talk about real stuff 
and I know it'd be hard. I feel like when you was talking about 
intergenerational trauma, but also intergenerational healing that's 
where it comes from. I definitely know my grandma and my 
mom's don't like to talk about stuff that harm done, but also stuff 
that they have done to others. 

But that's what's going to teach me, so when I get older that I 
know, yo, word there's ways that I could not do those things and 
I got that knowledge. So I say this because not only learning 
about movement history, our ancestral history, we got to learn 
about our family history and herstory and in-root ourselves in 
that healing and journeying with each other, and building with 
each other centered around the things that really are deep things 
that we're not talking about. 

BELLA BAHHS: I would say that-- 


RICHARD SMITH: We're going to do it quick. Bella one second, I 
don't want you to lose that, we're going to do a quick pause. We 
all set? Good for pause? Thanks. All right, go ahead Bella. 

BELLA BAHHS: OK, so this is Bella speaking, and in response to 
that. Alex, I think you bring up great points and I would just say 
that I think that we are talking about what has happened to the 
Black family when we have these conversations. I don't think we 
can talk about our ancestors and the history of Black people 
being in this country without talking about what that means for 
Black families here, right? So when we talk about slavery, we 
can't just talk about the practice of enslaving, but there was a 
real practice in separating families, right? 

So even from the very jump of taking people from their land, 
from the only land, the only family, the only tribes that they've 
known and bringing them to-- in disgusting conditions on sea- 
based prisons across the Atlantic-- to these lands, to these 
colonies, where you are already at war with a whole other 
population of people and then bringing us into this war, and 
making us just pawns in your imperialist strategy. And what that 
really means for the Black family. 

So how can Black men learn to be Black fathers in a system of 
slavery? How do you learn how to do that? How does a Black 
woman learn how to mother her children in nurturing ways under 
a system of slavery, where you might be separated from your 


children, they might be sold at any moment? What are we 
teaching? This country, I think that it always goes back to 
America and to what America has done to us, because what do 
you expect now? What do you expect now of families, right? 

So if we talk about real tangible things. A friend of mine, we just 
had a conversation yesterday and talked about how if America 
gave free housing for three generations of Black people, you 
know of Black families, then what that would do, right? Just that. 
Just that and that in a country that has foreclosed houses out all 
over the country. You know what I'm saying? So it's just like 
there's been real efforts. There's been real, real, real, real, 
serious efforts to disband the Black family, right? So what they've 
done to Black manhood, what they've done to Black womanhood. 

You know, I'm saying, how does a Black man start to begin to see 
himself as anything other than a sexual object, or someone who 
can produce more slaves. You know what I'm saying? Or 
someone who is productive, like that's been the measure of 
manhood and then that's what men because, again, they'd never 
consented to being men under this form of government, but once 
we became free we never had any choice to say about which 
government we will be governed by. All right, so now you have 
this whole population of men who cannot be men under this 
government, right? Or don't have any idea about the first thing to 


think about what does it mean to be a man here now. What does 
it mean to be a family. 

Someone who's centered in family, because we've never had a 
system for Black families in this country, ever. So it goes to me 
right back there and it feels to me a part of the very same 
conversation of Black women. We've nursed your kids, we've 
nursed your children, while we could not nurse our own. What do 
you think that does to us? What do you think that does to our 
ability to mother our own children? We've seen what it's done to 
your ability to mother your own children and we're not 
impressed, right? Well I'm not impressed by a White woman's 
governing of their children. 

So I would not want you to be-- we talk about the founding 
fathers, what parenthood means in this country. Truly for us to 
be parented by White slave holders. What does that mean for us 
to get our discipline, for us to get our home base? Our founding 
fathers are White slave holders. You understand what I'm saying? 

ALEX: Exactly 

LISA: Hi, this is Lisa. And so I just want to-- Bella when you were 
talking from that historical context, one of the institutional tools 
that's used right now against families is child protection services, 
right? And that's a continued example, a present day example, of 
how families are dismantled. How fathers are-- their roles have 


been removed from families. And then going back to even what 
Alex was saying, when we talk about this healing and the work 
that needs to be done, and for me, just for me, from the place 
that I'm in and the things that I've seen, when we think about 
how do we engage Black boys and Black men around healing, and 
what kinds of conversations should we be having in our families, 
it comes down to being able to tell your own story, right? 

Because so much of what we see happening is the externalizing 
of generational trauma, right? And I see people all the time, 
they're walking on a path that was paved for them, falling in the 
same hole, and they didn't even know the hole was there, but the 
system knew that the hole was there because they put it there, 
Tthe family members knew that the hole was there, because 
some of them put some of the holes there, and we watch people 
fall into the same hole over and over and over again, and without 
context and without information, and so I think that part of it is 
that even if within our own families they are not willing to tell 
their stories, then it's up to us to build other people up and 
journey with them using your words. 

Journey with them so that they can tell their stories, so that when 
we go out there we can tell our stories to them and then we 
become the hand that says, you know what, there is a hole there. 
Now I don't know, your hole might not be quite as big as mine, it 
might not look quite like mine, but I can tell you that based on 


our collective experiences there are some holes there, so let me 
lead you around that hole. Let me be a bridge, and because now I 
have strength, I'm healed, let me lay over that hole so that you 
can walk over my back, so that you can get where you need to 
be. So when we talk about healing, and I've got to say this part, 
we've got to talk about classism, right? And I've got a thing with 
that, right? 

So you've got people who are well educated, they're Black and 
just because one thing about this racialized trauma that we are 
experiencing, what Black people are learning is that your 
education and your money don't give you no pass. You ain't got a 
pass. So it would be in your best interests to really get in touch 
with your story instead of shopping and using material things, 
emulating their culture to cover your trauma in shame, right? And 
instead, identify and get in touch with your own story so that you 
can be that bridge and that hand to those who are still struggling 
and be that vessel of healing and journeying, right? 

And how we do that requires authenticity, and it requires 
humility, right, and it requires love. And I have to first be 
authentic with myself, right? And I have to love myself, and that 
comes through knowing my own story and then being positioned 
to then journey and be that bridge or that guide to others who 
are stuck. And for me that's what collective healing is about. So 
when I have to sum up my work, that's what it is. I don't care 


about the big picture. I do, because it impacts down here. But at 
the end of the day if I can't be anything else, let me just show up 
as many times as I can as an authentic hand and an authentic 
bridge to say, listen bro, listen come on out. You're loved, you're 
valuable, your life matters. 

Let me explain to you what the system has done to you so that 
you have a context and a language around some of these 
behaviors, and by doing that we take away some of the shame 
and the criminalization of what Black boys and men have 
experienced. And we couch them and humanity, and it's then that 
we can actually start to make movement around healing 
individually and collectively. 

RICHARD SMITH: Whoo! I saw a question up there. Somewhere 
said, how can I help? If you didn't get your answer to your 
question from what you've been hearing thus far, I'm not sure 
what direction we have to go into. I don't know, maybe wait for 
Lisa's book or Bella's book, that then you can read their books. Or 
Alex book, or Bruce's book. We have about 15 minutes, and I 
know that there were multiple questions and I apologize in 
advance I will get your-- we're obviously not going to get to 
everyone's questions, but I know there were some questions that 
were posed earlier on, understandably as thoughts were 
generated and so much was being discussed. 


And right now I just want to open it up intentionally just for any 
questions that folks want to ask to the panelists about what 
you've heard thus far. 

LISA: This is Lisa. Rich while we're waiting to hear some of the 
questions, in response to how can you help-- and this is for the 
clinicians, right, for the White clinicians-- one of the ways that 
you can help is within your agencies and in your institutions you 
can advocate, right, for ways of healing that you have Black 
practitioners within your institutions, and they have thoughts in 
ways of healing that would be meaningful for the people that they 
are serving. 

And so you need to be willing to use your privilege to make that 
possible, so that we can do practice within those institutions in a 
way that actually gets results, as opposed to being boxed in and 
locked in to evidence- based practices, which by the way, most of 
those studies didn't even include us. So they are not even 
applicable to our folks. They don't take in account the social 
determinants of health. They don't take in to account structural 
competency, and they don't take into account structural violence, 
right? 

And so if you want to help, you've got to be willing to use your 
voice and learn some things, so that Black practitioners don't 
have to hide how they're actually getting the results that they're 
getting, while simultaneously boosting your outcomes and making 


you look good, because you're in communities with nobody that 
looks like us in leadership. So we don't even have a voice in what 
tools get used to help our folks heal, but for those of you who are 
in those roles, use your voice so that we-- the practitioners that 
are in some of these organizations and agencies-- can actually do 
the work in a way that is creative and that honors the people that 
they are serving, and also gets results. 

We know how to get results. We know how to heal. We've been 
doing it a long time. That's why we all here. 

BELLA BAHHS: Lisa, can I piggy back off of what you're saying? 
And in bringing in the claim about classism, right? And about the 
Black boogie class. So I think that with my generation and those 
coming up under me specifically, what social media has done to 
widen the divide, right? So it's already a huge wealth gap, right? 
But then there's a perceived wealth gap that is being exploited by 
social media. So poor people, poor Black people are really 
resistant to identifying themselves with a poor Black class, or 
with a poor class or working class in general. 

And I feel like that's one thing that's very detrimental to our 
movement right now, because throughout history that is where 
we have been able to find synergy is in talking about a class 
struggle. But now we have our own people not wanting to identify 
with that class struggle, because even Black people can get away 
with anti-Blackness when it's rooted in anti-poverty, right? So 


you can talk about not liking poor people, you can talk about the 
actions of poor people and then still say, you know I'm pro Black, 
because I'm not talking about Black people, I'm talking about 
poor Black people. 

So the divisions just keep getting more divisive, and so we have a 
lot of uphill battle against that where we didn't have that same 
battle in previous movements, because we were at least all on 
one accord about yes, we are poor. And now there's so much 
disagreement amongst that people don't have an understanding, 
don't have a comprehension about what poverty is. So instead of 
us hating a system that creates millions of poor people within it, 
and keeps only a few billionaires, instead of us hating a system 
creates poverty, we hate poor people, right? 

So again, that is a system of anti-Blackness within itself, and it's 
hard for us to understand it as a class struggle even in police 
violence, right? We don't see that as a class struggle, right? Like 
police are poor people, right? You don't make a lot of money. You 
are in the poor working class also, but you have been empowered 
against other members of the poor working class through this 
idea of race, right? That loophole, that hole that you get to feel 
manly because you fill this hole now, because you have a job. 

And not to say that Black people don't have a job, but they don't 
have any job you are bound to respect, right? So how we provide 
our families, whether it be in the American economy or the 


underground American economy, however we provide for our 
families, you are not bound to respect that by any means, 
because you have this job of privilege that in your mind separates 
you from the poor class, even though you are still a poor person 
yourself. 

So the divisions between poverty, between poor people-- We 
know that this has always been a tactic though, right? So we 
know that there were indentured servants from Europe who were 
also doing the labor in this country, but then they felt like they 
were better than enslaved Africans doing labor in this country. So 
I just think we have to acknowledge that America is very good at 
being America, and America has always been getting better at 
counter-revolution since the first moment that America defined 
itself as being a revolutionary nation. 

It was also strengthening how it would be a movement against 
counter revolution, so they won their independence and they are 
holding onto it, right? So that no other class overthrows that. So 
they've been practicing this for a very long time. So the class 
division that we see now comes out of that class division, but it's 
a practice that they've been doing and I don't know we've been 
practicing our revolution to counter that counter revolution as 
diligently and they've been studying us to make divisions. I don't 
know that we've been doing the same efforts to alleviate what 
they are doing to us. 


I think about our Black Boogie. I think about Beyonce as an 
example of this and she's an incredible musical icon what have 
you, but because people have extraordinary music abilities then 
they call on them to speak for the whole Black community and 
that's not their role, right? That's not your role. You should not be 
calling on Beyonce to do that. We have never held you to that 
standard, right? But when I think about someone like Beyonce 
and I think about classism or capitalism in the system, I think 
about Beyonce made a decision to send rich people a whole 
wardrobe of her clothing, right? 

This is what you do as a Black billionaire, you send a whole 
wardrobe of clothing to your rich friends. Whereas I believe that 
one, I don't know that we need as many clothes as we all buy 
and that's a very capitalist thing. That's something rooted in us 
being brought up in America, but I know that historically Black 
people have never needed 365 outfits for the year, right? So 
we've already internalized that and then instead of us thinking of 
ways that we can distribute clothing or uniform to our 
community, we have our Black Boogie would be able to help us 
spearhead an effort like that to make sure that all Black children 
have clothes to go to school or what have you. 

Instead, we use capitalism to further line the pockets of White 
capitalists, and then just to give those resources to people who 
are already rich and do not need that type of aid, it just goes to 


show the disconnect between the Black Boogie class and the 
Black poor class, but again, the Black poor class will look at that 
and think that that's something we should aspire to be like, right? 
Like, Oh I can't wait till I can, you know, she sends me clothes. 

Instead of us really analyzing that in a more class nuanced 
perspective. 

ALEX: Yes. Oh, man. Oh, man. 

RICHARD SMITH: Alex, you going in? 

ALEX: Yeah, I'm about to go in. 

RICHARD SMITH: Go in, go in, go in. 

ALEX: So definitely, yeah. I definitely want to speak to the lanes. 
I feel like people being many lanes and just no lanes, or like 
people will be reading one book but not another book. So just 
thinking about even Black churches. Just thinking about, word, 
deep in movements, civil rights movement, the Black churches 
were the hubs for organizing movement work. Why is it the Black 
churches in our communities now not doing work against 
organizing movements. You understand, just thinking about, 
word, why are we just reading the Bible, but not trying to learn 
about our history? 


Just thinking about all these things that people rather say or 
rather do, but not get the whole slice of it. Not get the whole 
thing. And I think that you said, also somebody even put a 
question here, how do you-- what about non-Black folks as allies, 
how do they contribute to the healing and the change? Definitely, 
I'd be afraid of White people that's afraid to build with White 
people. That's one. You feel me? If you're not building with your 
people already that's the first step. 

You feel me? I feel like, yeah, White people don't want to talk 
about real deep stuff with White people. You feel me? And they 
then want to come around here and be like, yo, let me, word, let 
me get some of that deep stuff that you got. And I'm like, nah. 
You understand? Because word, like I said we got to work on the 
individual and collective transformation and definitely there's so 
many disconnects between me and White people. And so you just 
come in here, be like how can I contribute? You should think 
about your healing. You should think about your community 
healing. Your White people's healing, and I know we all connected 
as human beings on this earth, when I see you in that 
transformation then we could kick it. We could do more. 

And that's another thing, you feel me. So folks really need to be 
thinking about who you really building with, and why you shy of 
building with certain folks as well? 


RICHARD SMITH: Whoo. Told you all, you're in store. But as 
everyone knows, one of the things that I want to highlight, you 
just listened to, and witnessed, folks baring their soul, bearing 
witness, giving up their emotions, giving up the minds. The 
people on this panel, like, the reason why it's resonating the way 
it is with you is because that's where it's coming from. And that 
labor, that emotional labor, that labor of love is something that 
I'm always going to amplify as something that needs to be 
supported, and so one of the things I have to say is that all of 
these folks are on this, Bruce, Lisa, Bella, Alex, they all do this 
work. 

So instead of trying to get a webinar that's going to capture 
everything that you need to know in order to-- this is not a need 
to know how to work with Black people webinar. This is 
information that can help to form a lens and help you to 
understand where you might even begin. But I always have to, 
always have to say that you need to support these people who 
are on this panel and the way that you can support them is not 
just taking this webinar and passing it along to everyone at your 
organization or trying to regurgitate some of the information that 
you've heard on here, but also reaching out to them and getting 
them to support your work, right? 

One of the best ways that you can support this movement and 
the best ways that you can learn how to do this work, if you want 


to do work around supporting the healing journey of people of 
color, of Black folks, of Brown folks, it's to listen to Black folks 
and Brown folks. And so with that said, all of their information is 
going to be readily available, right? All of their information is 
going to be readily available for you to be able to access them, to 
connect with them and to figure out the ways in which you all can 
work together and they can support your efforts. Is that right, 
panelists? Can I get a head nod on that? 

And the other thing I want to say is that, well, I've got a logistical 
thing too. Like once this ends you're going to get some 
evaluations that will come up, because we actually at ending 
time. So I just want to thank everyone who has participated in 
this conversation. I want to thank the panelists for giving so 
much of your heart, your minds, your spirits, your bodies, 
because this is not just an interest of ours. This is not just a job 
of ours. This is who we are. So the way that we offer ourselves in 
this, I know the way that you all offer yourselves in this, takes a 
tremendous amount. So thank you so much for creating space for 
offering that to the people on here. 

And I just wish you all and I pray that you all have a moment to 
sit and be still and nourish your own bodies in a spirit of healing 
justice, realizing that not only are we working towards healing 
and creating an environment that is liberated for our people, we 
are also doing that for ourselves. So I just pray and hope that 


you all create that space for yourselves and that you're connected 
with people who are allowing you to create or helping you to 
create communities of care, because we don't need self-care. We 
need communities of care where we can oftentimes hold each 
other accountable and create space for us to heal while we 
continue to do this work. 

And with that, I'm done. I'm done. There were no questions that 
were posed. We're at time. Thank you NRC for creating this 
platform for us. Nancy, Charity, Jackie, Angelina, thank you for all 
your support. Thank you to the interpreters. I thank you all for 
participating. This information is also going to be available on the 
NRC website which you might have seen in the chat. Peace 
everyone. Love more.